Just What Are The "Facts"
It's odd to me that the more conservative you are the more you moan on about the "facts" even when the "facts" are totally contrary to what you are saying.
He's what I "predict" the "facts" will turn out to be.
Valerie Plames idenity will turn out to be top secret.
The CIA is none to happy with what happened. You see, something like this that ended up in national papers has never happened before. An occurrence like this hurts the CIA. Others see our CIA used for political purposes and will have less confidence in giving information and staying secret. How about the people that they had worked with on WDM through the front company that was exposed because of their outing of Ms. Plame? The local people, the ones we depend on for information. Whatever the legal machinations we will find that they used the CIA for political situations and harmed the agency.
The information will show how this group (basically PNAC) has used character assassination to attack all enemies of the White House and build a lie for a war that has not only not been effective in the war on terror but actually given the enemy "street cred". A waaaaaaaay dumb way to fight the "war on terror".
This CIA deal should not be a partisan thing. When politics gets this far down and people try to defend it I wonder why they hate America. ...Just my little prediction.......if America as we knew it still exists.
Update...and here ,for those interested in the "facts". Warning to those on the right, you might wish to choose to ignore the statements contained within. Or think of a reason these guys have no validity or have no grasp on the "facts". Must be consistant you know.
So now lets look at the facts. 1. White House memo says Plame ID secret. Not to be revealed. Darby Roves husband who works in the white house says he talked to a reporter about joe wilsons wife and her job.
2.Executive Order 12958 requires white house employees sign a "Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement," also known as a SF-312, promising not to reveal classified information.1 The nondisclosure agreement signed by White House officials such as Mr. Rove states: "I will never divulge classified information to anyone" who is not authorized to receive it. 3. Rove and Libby guilty, maybe more. Novak also should be charged separately. 5. They have ,according to the US CIA ,harmed Americas efforts at intelligence (note the call for an investigation) 6. Please feel free to dismiss these as you wish. Remember though, the truth shall set you free.
posted by Ron at 7:07 PM
41 Comments:
You are a typical liberal. You presented no "facts" in your blog what-so-ever. You presented your feelings, which is what liberals always do. The facts are clearly drawn out in this case. Plames put her husband in a position to attack the Bush admin. Then her husband wrote a report full of lies. That is an actual fact, not my "feelings" or predictions. Your blog is painful to read due to the fact that I think with common sense and reason. You are all over the map in this simple, pathetic attempt to keep this non-story alive.
What!!!!! I guess you didn't read the blog or you have a different standard for "facts". There is a set of "facts" that you can spin for either side. Please play the game of assembling ALL the facts. Then lets see if you can use reason to discover right from wrong. The big issue in Wilsons report was wheather Saddam had material from Niger to make a nuclear bomb. Joe said no he did not lie. You are the most far from common sense and reason as one can get. You blindly follow your dear leader because to do otherwise would make you and icky liberal and we know how icky they can be. Take your shit elsewhere cuz the people that comment on this blog are on to your attacks and stupitidy. They know the truth cuz they are interested in America. Will Mr. Fitzgeralds facts be good enough for you or will you decide that he should recieve your spears next to cover dear leader. You guys are great at personal attacks but have no skill what so ever when it comes to debating actual policy. You, with your current way at going about things are a worthless boil on the face of a great country.Get real, admit what everybody else already knows and we can talk.Ruining Americas intelligence on WDM is not a non story and shows just how unamerican and totally political you look at things. You're a pathetic troll.
By the way mr or mrs scrabble. I did learn something from your post. I now understand why you don't seem to care about a war of choice that has killed tens of thousands of people. You think feelings and emotion is a character flaw. This is one reason you will never change the people that are not currently on your side. They DO have feelings. Must be sad to have such a dark, empty life view.
Criminal traitors betrayed a loyal CIA Agent. Why do ave.joe and his sidekick the game try to hide this fact? The Donkey reads the blogs of these two people and they make no mention of betrayal in the White House. Why do ave.joe and the game side with criminals?
can any of you state a fact that supports your traitor claim.
I will now prove joe wilson is a liar like I said. You prove that Karl Rove did anything wrong with an actual fact. Not your opinion, not usuing the word triator.
Recently, Joe Wilson Refused To Admit He Is A Registered Democrat:
Joe Wilson Is A Registered Democrat. (District Of Columbia Voter Registrations, Accessed 7/14/05)
Joseph Wilson Has Donated Over $8,000 To Democrats Including $2,000 To John Kerry For President In 2003, $1,000 To Hillary Clinton’s (D-NY) HILLPAC In 2002 And $3,000 To Al Gore In 1999. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website, www.opensecrets.org, Accessed 7/12/05)
Wilson Endorsed John Kerry For President In October 2003 And Advised The Kerry Campaign. (David Tirrell-Wysocki, “Former Ambassador Wilson Endorses Kerry In Presidential Race,” The Associated Press, 10/23/03)
“[Wilson] Admits ‘It Will Be A Cold Day In Hell Before I Vote For A Republican, Even For Dog Catcher.’” (Scott Shane, “Private Spy And Public Spouse Live At Center Of Leak Case,” The New York Times, 7/5/05)
Wilson Claimed His Wife Did Not Suggest He Travel To Niger To Investigate Reports Of Uranium Deal; Instead, Wilson Claims It Came Out Of Meeting With CIA.
But Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Received Not Only Testimony But Actual Documentation Indicating Wilson’s Wife Proposed Him For Trip. “Some CPD, [CIA Counterproliferation Division] officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador’s wife ‘offered up his name’ and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from the former ambassador’s wife says, ‘my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.’” (Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq,” U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)
In Fact, His Wife Suggested Him For 1999 Trip, As Well. “The former ambassador had traveled previously to Niger on the CIA’s behalf … The former ambassador was selected for the 1999 trip after his wife mentioned to her supervisors that her husband was planning a business trip to Niger in the near future and might be willing to use his contacts in the region …” (Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq,” U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)
There, I have states facts that Joe Wilson is a liberal partisan, he lied on many instances, and it was his wife that recomended him for the job.
Karl Rove said "Joe Wilson's wife set him up with job."
So Karl Rove stated a fact, never metioned anyones name.
Let me please see your fact, your hard evidence. I am not even sure a liberal knows what a fact is. Read this post again to see what a fact is, then try and find one to defend your side of the issue.
Also, if you read my blog, why couldn't you come up with one thing to dispute what I said. Your arguements are about as intelligent as a 2nd graders. You just say that what ave. joe and I post is a lie and is wrong. You can't back it up, you make no argument. Donkey and ron make random comments and never prove their was betrayal or anything wrong done at all. I will wait for some sort of intelligent response. HINT: Find a conservative to write your blog for you.
The Donkey read something like this and reworked it to suit his needs.
The Donkey not here to debate these people, and The Donkey is not here to find some common ground between The Donkey's position and their talking points, and The Donkey is definitely not hear to be their friends. Get a clue. The Donkey is here to point out their hypocrisy, their contempt for people who argue in good faith, and their complete lack of any principles aside from personal advancement and party loyalty. The Donkey doesn’t debate with this sort of persons - just discredit them, and walk away.
The Donkey can not firgure out my the game and avejoe are even bothering to read this blog much less post here. They no nothing of Roswell or the local politics. All they can do is avoid any mention of tratiors and treason in the White House.
Avejoe and the game should search out the terms treasom and White House to see that that Donkey is not alone in wanting traitors punished.
The facts are shown on the post you are commenting on you wayward idiot. God, how can someone be so transparently partisan and stupid. You instead try to turn a matter of national security on to wheather joe wilson is a democrat or not. What a poor excuse for an American Patriot. I have no need to prove myself to someone so unrelentingly wrong. Screw your wacky fun facts you moron.
It hurts when you don't have a point...I would be mad if I were you as well.
I will depart from this heated debacle now to reflect on these exchanges. I think it is dangerous to threaten the patriotism of an American. I will now present my chain of logic and we will see if further fruitful debate can follow.
I read the headline that Karl Rove sent the e-mail exposing Valerie Plame. I read the e-mail transcript and noted he did not use her name, but I considered this weak defense so I decided to investigate Valerie Plame. According to the facts Valerie Plame was scheduled to be de-classified in July and her name was exposed in May. No changes in her employment took place on the day her name was exposed or on the day she became non-classified. In fact, she holds the same position today. Further investigation yields that the CIA believes she was exposed by the traitor Aldrich Ames in 1994 and has been absent from covert overseas duty as a direct result.
Then, to my dismay, I discovered that Valerie Plame did a photo spread and interview for the international magazine Vanity Fair with her husband Joe Wilson. Here is where my red flag went up. Logic would tell you that if a person truly valued their top secret status they would try to protect it even after exposure. If I was an outed secret agent would I A) Go into witness protection, or B) Attach a photo spread to my name and the name of my husband. B is not logical behavior for an undercover agent wishing to protect their cover. If Valerie Plame has no concern for her former undercover status then why should I care now?
I also noted that Joe Wilson was part of the interview. Since he is Valerie Plame's husband I decided to investigate him. While reading the Vanity Fair interview I was struck by how politically charged the interview was. This is a non-partisan analysis by the way, but Wilson and Plame spent the interview time bashing Bush and administration policy. Not too long afterwards Joe Wilson has a book out further detailing the job of his wife and his own undercover missions. Where is this confidentiality issue again? It seems Wilson wanted only to sell books, his interview and novel were too similar to deny the connection.
So now I have Rove, Wilson, and Plame. Wilson and Plame come off as dishonest and morally reprehensible to me, while Rove seems only to be foolish. So now I must decide: what did Rove do wrong? If I am to believe he broke the law I must research the law. I quickly found that the very woman that introduced and wrote the law has stated that Karl Rove did not violate it. Where else do I need to look? If Rove violated a memo and a non-disclosure agreement I really don't care, why should I?
Rove was reacting to the political attacks of Joe Wilson when he wrote his e-mail. Why would Wilson put himself, his undercover mission, and his undercover wife into the lime light like that? The only things that happened after the name was revealed worked to make the Wilson’s' more money and that doesn't ring of treason to me. We are not talking about Benedict Arnold here. Rove made a mistake and the Wilson’s' made a bunch of money. Why are we even talking about this? Let Rove be along with his foolish mistake.
Joe, let me give you credit for at least finally approaching this as an adult in your last post. I understand what you are saying. I have my "facts" and you have yours. I'm still convinced though that the issue is a CIA leak by the White House, a breach of national security, and not Joe or Valerie. I see that as an attempt at misdirection. I guess we will have to agree to disagree and see what Mr. Fitzgerald has to say about it. Then we can go at it again!:-)
ave. joe, you put things so well. I get all pissed off and would like to calmly say what you just said, but with my ADD and temper, it just never happens that way...I too love to debate, and I would like to continue debating on this blog...as would I like ron and donkey to comment on my blog...it is fun to throw ideas back and forth.
Game, a little background for you. I use this blog as an adjunct to a talk radio program I do here in Roswell,NM. An extremely conservative area by the way. A few more miles and we'd be west texas. I have an(annoying to some I am sure) way to approach a persons argument in the same way they approach it. I'm quite civil to civil people quite openminded to the openminded, quite closeminded toward the closeminded and a flamethrower towards the flamethrowers.You are welcome to say what you want here because freedom of speech is part of Real America. Actually you guys do me a favor by preparing me for my show. :-)
glad I can help...
Ron, I tried to post this in "the game's" blog, but it did not go even though I thought I had registered. I passed on a lof of info, as usual. But, I did not include Waxman's 11 acts of treason committed by Rove. Have you seen that??
Perhaps you would be good enough to "pass on" the comments below to him for me: The man is obviously uninformed as studies prove most Bush supporters are.
It is possible that when the CIA was discussing sending someone to Niger, Valerie Plame suggested that because of his experience in Africa, her husband would be a good candidate to go to Niger. However, SHE did not have the authority to send him there. Someone else made that decision. Someone else sent him there.
From what I understand, he did not even receive pay for the mission, although I would imagine he was paid expenses.
He came home and submitted his report. Then years later when Bush used the Niger yellow cake as part of his rationale for war with Iraq when Wilson had submitted the information that this was nonsense and the administration used it anyway, he tried to stop using Niger yellow cake as a rationale.
After Wilson's column, you may recall, they DID say that should not have been used.
Also, George Tenet and CIA professionals were furious that Plame had been "outed." They considered her to be an undercover agent.
This administration is constantly dishonest and deceitful as well as being incredibly incompetent in every way. The mother of all lies which the "liberal" press let them get away with was that we went to war with Saddam because he did not let the weapons inspectors in.
I believe Wilson voted for GHW Bush, who thought well of him. GHW Bush even gave him some kind of award, if I remember correctly.
Among the more interesting articles written by Republicans about this administration are the ones I link below. One is by former judge and Republican Senator from Kentucky, Marlowe Cook
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1021-30.htm "A former republican senator for Kerry "frightened to death of Bush."
Another is by the diplomat who quit over Nixon's bombing of Cambodia and who urged his fellow diplomats to quit the "worst regime by far" in the history of the United States. http://www.vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=725
John Eisenhower, son of my hero, Ike, voted for Kerry as well -- voted for a Democrat fot the first time in his life because Bush is so despicable, and wrote an article explaining why.
My all time favorite article, though, is by a former Goldwater Republican, Hal Crowther who wrote "With Trembling Fingers." He asked, among other things, why noone cared that all of the Bush sons had made their fortunes one step ahead of the district attorney.
http://www.populist.com/04.10.crowther.html
AND to show it is not just astute Americans who recognize Bush's lack of worth, this is a link to Brian Reade's column the day after the election.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/columnists/brianreade/ Okay, it will no longer come up, so I will copy part of what it said here"
The headline of the Nov 4th London Daily Mirror read “How can 59, 054,087 people be so dumb?”
Mirror columnist Brian Reade wrote “God Help America” a scathing column on the stupidity of Americans in actually electing an “immature buffoon” over a much more capable and intelligent man who would have restored some of America’s lost credibility among the family of nations. Because we instead elected Bush, he said it was a sad day for America and the world, but the simple fact that the majority of Americans voted for Bush/Cheney, men the Baghdad Girl Blogger calls “idiots,” proves, she and Reade both say, that we deserve what we will get.
Reade mourned the fact that “this once-great country” elected “a lawless cowboy to lead [Americans] further into carnage and isolation and the unreserved contempt of most of the rest of the world… A self-serving dim-witted, draft-dodging, gung-ho little rich boy, whose idea of courage is to yell: “I feel good,” as he unleashes an awesome fury which slaughters 100,000 innocents for no other reason than greed and vanity… a man without morals or vision. An economic incompetent who inherited a $2billion surplus from Clinton, gave it in tax cuts to the rich and turned the U.S. into the world's largest debtor nation.
A man who sneers at the rights of other nations. Who has withdrawn from international treaties on the environment and chemical weapons.
A man who flattens sovereign states then hands the rebuilding contracts to his own billionaire party backers.” A man who was elected by “self-righteous… red-necks, who believe God gave America the biggest dick in the world so it could urinate on the rest of us and make their land "free and strong"”
He asks Americans: “Have you learnt nothing? Do you despise your own image that much? Do you care so little about the world beyond your shores? How could you do this to yourselves?
How appalling must one man's record at home and abroad be for you to reject him?” End Quote.
You know what war is -- terrorism with a bigger budget. IF a Muslim country had invaded the U.S. to steal our resources, very probably Christians would be the ones committing terrorist acts. The lunatic Christian fringe are already advocating bombing Mecca or just "killing them all." There is not a nickels worth of difference between Islamic fundamentalists and Christian extremists in my opinion.
I am going to copy here what a few Iraq War veterans had to say about it all.
Iraq War Veterans Speak
Joshua Despain:
I've seen lots of people who have yellow ribbons on the back of their car, and I try to talk to them. The one thing that you can do to support me and the troops is to listen to our voice, and most people who have the mentality “support our troops” don't want to hear what we have to say about ending the war.
They think that supporting the troops is supporting the war, and it should be the opposite.
Support President Bush and our troops? That's a conflicting statement.
If you're supporting Bush, then you're not supporting our troops. And if you support our troops, you don't support Bush.
Andrew Plummer:
You think you're going to serve your country. That's not what the military is there for.
You think you're going to make the world a better place. That's not what the military is doing today.
The military is protecting American business interests and killing people to expand our power and generate more wealth for wealthy people in America.
Kellie Dougherty.
I didn't believe the reasons that we were being given to go to war in the first place, and then when I got there and saw the horrible impact that the war and the occupation was having on the population of Iraq and on our own soldiers and all the reasons we were given were false to go to war, so it was people dying and people suffering for lies.
Nicholas Przybyla (involved in the initial invasion of Afghanistan, 2001-2002)
I'm here to stop the war I guess trying to put an end to it and let people know what's going on is total bullshit. I had a top secret clearance and every day we would receive intelligence briefings twice a day, and it came down towards the end of our deployment that we had killed about twenty suspected terrorists, members of the Taliban.
We got about seven hostages onboard and the total deaths of civilian casualties was about three thousand-most of them were children—, and I just don't think that's a good way to fight a war just to blow the shit out of a country, kill a bunch of innocent people, and then charge into another country that has nothing to do with it… the intelligence briefings that we got said that the 13th Marines had Osama bin Laden and all his buddies cornered in the Tora Bora Mountains, and it was only a matter of time before we uncovered them. After we were relieved, we were relieved by the (Bomb Homer Shard) Amphibious Ready Group. They went in and did the same thing that we did, have him even more cornered and.. they just let him go.
All the troops were pulled out and sent to Iraq over bullshit when the real person that was responsible for September 11th was set free. That's a fact… my personal opinion is that I think the Bush administration wanted bin Laden to go free so that they could scare the rest of the country and just keep them scared and move into Iraq and not be questioned about it. I joined the military and now like I said before sometimes I get people that come up to me and say thank you for your contribution thank you for protecting us and I think that's kind of stupid because we weren't protecting them at all.
Our National Guard is gone. America's weaker than it's ever been on a home front attack, and it's completely pointless to go to Iraq and die over something that serves no purpose. It's completely insane.
Tim Talib
I'm here today to protest the on going occupation in Iraq. I believe that it's immoral and illegal under international law and I believe that we went into Iraq that our motivation had more to do with oil and imperialism than to do with Saddam Hussein or weapons of mass destruction which were never found or connections to 9/11 which were never made.
Best,
Patriot6.
The Donkey knows this story is not going away. The Donkey also knows that this little blog and a radio show have no effect on what has happened. All we can do for now is watch what happens and learn. Only several hundred people, working together can truly affect what happens in Washington. Both Ron and the Donkey are drops in a pond. Then again no one snowflake is to blame for an avalance. No matter, both Ron and the Donkey will call it like we see it. Happy belated Birthday to the host. What is is like to be so old?
Gosh!
Isn't it fitting for this one to call himself/herself "The Game" when this is all about the games that the GOP plays few of which deal with FACTS and most of which deal with political spin, outright lies, and character assassination? My advice to "The Game" is to #1 look up the word Liberal in a dictionary, #2 watch/read something that tells what is REALLY happening in the world instead of the GOP spin and what passes for news in the corporate media outlets ("Democracy Now" 375 on LINK or www.democracynow.org online is a good one where he/she will get the FACTS), and #3 get some help because he or she is obviously OD'd on the right wing talk shows/blogs and brainwashed, too.--The DemoCat
to the person who can't even show his/her face...go on my blog, pick out something I present and then back up with facts...and prove it wrong.
Hi everybody, let's just keep in mind that this is the way the right is trying to spin this. Turn it into an issue on Joe and Valerie. Don't play the misdirection game anymore. It's about a leak from the white house and if it was a violation of the law and/or harmful to national security. If we keep them from playing their game of personal destruction and on the issues they have nothing. It's all they know how to do. This is the way we will ultimately win. You know, actually find the truth. I've played their little game my self but I believe we need to make sure they stay on topic. If they do they are sunk!...thanks game and joe for keeping us up with the current spin.
ron,
once sentence of your comment was correct...this is a story about a leak and if it broke the law. So far, no one can say with any confidence that a law has been broken. Yes, it is easy to prove that "Joe and Valarie" are corrupt partisans with an agenda.
I would like to hear anyone comment on ave joes or my blogs...just put up a new one tonight...not very long and very simply put.
Don't forget to comment on other posts on my blog...but try to make a point, not just make hollow claims and name calling.
yes yes...one not once at the start of that last post
Joe Wilson wrote his column because HE KNEW the administration was "sexing up" the evidence about Iraq's threat either to us, or even to his neighbors. Lifelong Conservative Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked in the Pentagon in the run-up to the war and who took early retirement rather than be a part of such dishonesty, said the same thing. She also said speaking out against this evil administration felt like "duty." As far as I know she hasn't written a book. The 7 or more memos and minutes that have come out of Britain, the e-mail from the CIA agent about "Curve Ball," etc. The 'Veteran Intelligence Agents for Sanity'(not sure that is the exact name) headed by 27 year agent Ray McGovern who worked for the president's father said the same thing. He said Cheney was leaning on the CIA to give him evidence he could use to take us to war. He said that was not only unusual, but it was also unprecedented.
Those are all FACTS. And although I do not know this for sure, i DOUBT seriously that even if Valerie Plame SUGGESTED her husband be the one the CIA sent to Africa, SHE would not have had the authority to make that decision -- someone else would have actually decided he should go and have sent him.
Richard Clarke did everything he could to try to get Bush, Condi, et. al to pay attention to the terrorist threat, and in FACT sent an urgent memo to Condi on Jan. 25, 2001, saying 'We urgently need a principals level meeting on Al Qaeda... it is not just some little terrorist group...'
But Condi did nothing, nor did anyone else. And Clark is the ONLY one with the grace to apologize to the 9/11 victims.
It is amazing how many people have quit this administration and then written books to say how Fascist it is. Christine Whitman is the latest. One guy quit early on and joined the Kerry campaign.
Right wingers think it is for money. I think most of the people are patriots who are just appalled by the really horrible leadership that our country is experiencing now. Intelligence agents, State Dept. officials, and A 20 year veteran Congress person on the Armed Services committee said she had never seen anything like this before -- the number of exceptional Military people who are taking early retirement or just flat out quitting in droves because they know there is madness at the helm. Countries hate us so much they are ganging up against us. That, too, is unprecedented.
Why is it so many newspapers who supported Bush in 2000, supported Kerry in 2004?? Because Bush BY HIS ABYSMAL RECORD ON EVERYTHING has proven himself to be incompetent. His lies fill volumes of well annotated books. Republican Ron Paul wrote a wonderful article called "Who's Better Off?" A Republican congress hopeful is running in the primaries in Vermont, I think on an "impeach Bush" platform.
Bush supporters are simply willfully ignorant or in denial. Bush should go down for a whole bunch of reasons. John Dean and others said many scandals ago Abu Ghraib was "worse than Watergate" and that there are close to a dozen grounds for impeachment. Probably more, now. Rove and "Plamegate" are only a symptom of the rottenness at the core of this administration.
Clinton who lied about personal sins was impeached when 56% of the people did not want him impeached. Now, if it turns out the president lied us into war in which "other people's kids" are dying and being maimed, which we know he did, only 50% of the people RIGHT NOW think Bush should not be impeached.
Almost the entire rationale that "the game" uses to prove Joe Wilson is evil is that he is a Democrat and has given money to Democrats. Actually, I think he voted for Bush I. But he probably decided (rightly) that Gore and Kerry were the better candidates in 2000 and 2004. Wilson probably believed his party affiliation was noone's business because it had nothing to do with the "facts" of his trip or the reason he spoke out against this administration's war lies.
The memo about "Joe Wilson's wife" was marked secret. It was not to be discussed. Rove discussed it. Deliberately, unnecessarily, and with vindictive intent.
Joe Wilson only has one wife. The idea that because he did not say her name he did not leak her identity is ridiculous. All Novak had to do was ask someone what Joe Wilson's wife's name was. Such hair splitting is kind of like the argument that Clinton did not have sex with Monica because he did not have intercourse with her. If my husband tried that argument on me under similar circumstances he would not get very far!! In fact he would be in worse shape than if he had just fessed up to it!! Same with "Valerie Plame" or "Joe Wilson's wife."
My best friend votes for Republicans most of the time, but she is not a fool. She voted for a Democrat this time. Many of us vote for who we think is the best person. I don't necessarily believe a person is a total washout simply because he is a Republican. Of course I think anyone who voted for THIS Bush is a fool.
Bush's campaign co-chair for veterans in 2000, General McPeak, voted for Kerry this time and campaigned for him. Said he would not vote for Bush again if he were running against Grandma Moses, who has been dead for years.
"The game" writes that Wilson said in 2005 he would not vote for a Republican. But that was in 2005, which doesn't mean he had not voted for Republicans in the past. However, if I were him after the way they have tried to destroy him since 2003 simply because he pointed out that the administration was lying in their case for war, I would never vote for another Republican, either. But that doesn't mean he never voted for Republicans before. As I said, I think he voted for Bush, Sr. Another friend of mine who, like me, used to vote for some Republicans ALSO says she will never vote for another Republican after what this bunch has done, and not after almost all Republicans in Congress and way too many Democrats have supported their evil agendas.
I sure won't vote for as many as I used to.
Oh for the days when you could be a "good" person whether you were a Republican or a Democrat. A good person with a different way of looking at things!!
Would someone who had done this under Clinton or Gore have gotten such leeway for unethical behavior by people like "the game?" If 9/11 had happened under Gore OR if Gore had lied us into a war from which members of his family were profitting personally, if Abu Ghraib had happened under Clinton or Gore they would have been impeached long since and would probably be in prison for war crimes. Rush, Hannity, et.al. would have screamed every day, and it would have happened. But, in spite of the "liberal press," that has not happened with Bush. More is the pity!!
Game, I and the other people here have put up facts and information to support nearly every question you asked till it's running out of your ears and you just act like you haven't even read them. You just keep saying where are the facts and prove it. It's already been done. You are more interested in being a partisian and showing how much you know cuz you listen to Oxy Limbaugh than improving this country. You are a waste of time if you have no interest in learning something.
Here is the link to an article on the Wilson's written by their next door neighbor. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-07-24-wilson-neighbor_x.htm
He includes in this information the fact that the CIA says Valerie was not responsible for Wilson going to Niger. But, they will not allow HER to talk about it.
TO THE GAME: I haven't read much lately, but you sound like some foul mouthed madman, I am a Liberal and proud of it, you don't have like liberals that means you don't like Jesus Christ (The Biggest Liberal who ever walked the earth) and who was murdered by the conservatives of his own sect, well at least those who pretended to be regligious to those they represented. I don't know who you prepresent - but it isn't good, that much I as a liberal can see, if you like liars, and cheats and yes even murderers in the white house then you should feel right at home. We were lied into Iraq, and now there's evidence we were even duped aabout 911, perhaps Marvin Bush the head of Security of the World Trade Towers could tell us something since its his bother who claims to be president. If those lies are not deception enough for you, maybe the murderous acts of Laura Bush when she was 17 and drunk and killed another, is that good enough for you. And if you need a little cheating about the county in Ohio who reported 3000+ votes for Bush and only a few for Kerry - funny thing is the entire country only had 300 registered voters, you tell me - you got the big lying mouth, you like to call names, you cheat and you probably do every other crime that the Bush administration just hasn't been made accountable for. This is the Worst president (your president - he doen't cheat and get away with it twice with me) in the history of this country and my grandkids will knkokw it - no matter what Rewrite Lynn Cheney does to the history books, this clown is going to get the truth even if he and people likemiinded don't want to hear it. One thing is for sure your pity, your sympathy as a conservative doesn't come without a price tag and that price is one that is moving us backwards in history you're just like all the unintelliegent hay-seeds you represent. I go forward - Liberal enough?
The DemoCat agrees with Bewitching Wizard. Jesus was the ultimate Liberal. All you "hippie hating" ultra-conservatives must have such a hard time looking at all the pictures of Jesus with long hair, a beard, and sandals cuz he sure looks like a hippie to me, and sounds like one cuz he was the Prince of Peace who preached in favor of love, peace, tolorance, and charity and against greed. Jesus may have been crucified by the Romans, but it happened because he was tried and convicted by the Pharisees who were conservatives who wanted to conduct business as usual and not be criticized for their greed and hypocrisy. Also, Jesus was a Jew and that's for all the Aryan Nation/Ku Klux Klan lovers/members out there who supported Bush/Cheney in both elections and the disenfranchisement of minority voters BOTH times. Kerry won in 2004 and so did Gore in 2000.
The Game and Average Joe want ME to go to their blogs? If I wanted to hear GOP talking points, I could listen to the guys who have talk shows after Ron's. Why don't The Game and Average Joe go to "Democracy Now"'s website? www.democracynow.org
Since the latter is funded by the viewers and not the mega-corporations that only care about getting enormous tax breaks thanks to our GOP dominated Congress, the REAL news is reported all the time instead of the little bit that is allowed out by what is NOT the Liberal media. Y'all can't handle the truth, though-right.
Truth is that someone, probably Rove, leaked info and outed a CIA agent investigating WMDs, thereby endangering her, her family, and her co-workers and making it impossible for her or the latter to ever work as undercover agents again. All for petty revenge because her husband exposed the untruths that were used to lie us into PNAC's oil war in Iraq. If you don't think that's wrong, you must not care very much about fighting the war on terror-oh, excuse me-The global struggle against violent extremism -right? More double speak from the "thought police" (Rove, etc.).
And for goodness sake, will you puhleeze look up the word Liberal in a dictionary! If you can start up a blog, you ought to be able to use a dictionary!
Oh my God! You have degraded into some sort of liberal zombies bent on world domination. You actually frighten me with your nonsense. You are relating the great works of Jesus Christ to liberalism? I would never denegrate the works of our Savior by calssifying Him in any way. When Moses confronted the burning bush God denied all labels, what gives you the right to apply one? That is the thing with you crazy lunatics, you think the Bible is political fodder and that people with religious values are freaks. Take your nonsensical rhetoric to a library and check your FACTS.
More on FACTs, running through a bunch of quotes from writers and assorted opinion pieces is not fact. Perhaps during your trip to the library after you have looked up conservatism, actually read a bible, and then properly reflected on your sins you might take a gander at the definition of fact. THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN POLITICS!!! As I have explained before we take the best source possible, test that source, and hope we are quoting something reliable that can wear the label of "fact". For example, I took pieces of a bi-partisan Senate Intelligence Committee report with about a dozen senators input and quote it as fact. Pulling out some memo and some op-ed piece and claiming they are superior is ridiculous. Should I trust the joint opinion of several Senators from both sides of the aisle, or some agenda-ridden filth passed on to satiate the masses?
Yes, we can all find thousands of people to support our views. It is our job to flesh out the details and be informed Americans, not informed liberlas or conservatives.
Average Joe-
I've told you before to look up the word Liberal in a dictionary. The problem with all you rightwing fanatics is that you think Liberal means radical. But, hey, wasn't Jesus, himself, accused of being a radical and trying to incite a rebellion against the Roman government?
Liberal means in favor of progress, reforms, and the protection of civil liberties. It means generous and broadminded. These are all good things.
Jesus was the Prince of Peace. He preached in favor of tolorance, charity, and loving one's neighbor. He preached against greed and hypocrisy and he drove the money changers from the temple. He cared more about the spirit of the law than the letter of the law, so he healed the sick on the Sabbath. He hung out with tax collectors and other sinners and tried to show them a better way instead of condemning them. The ultra-conservatives who wear God on their sleeves and yet advocate the destruction of the environment, giving everything to the rich and mega-corporations, war, hatred, prejudice, and genocide against all Islamics are not Christians in my book. I imagine that Jesus is looking down on what is happening in Iraq and weeping.
Also, the great majority of Liberals are not far left radicals who believe abortion should be used as birth control, that the NEA (tax payers) should pay for sick and graphic art, that atheists should be able to dictate whether voluntary school prayer be allowed, etc. We're not like the SLA going around blowing up buildings, kidnapping heiresses and forcing them to rob banks, etc.
Get a grip, Average Joe! You are way out in RIGHT field. Jesus was a Liberal and if you want to be like Him, try being a Liberal, yourself. --The DemoCat
To: Average Joe A. your the degraded one, you who has no mind - not be able people would have some sort of polical affiliation during the times of Jesus is foolish, you have Liberals and conservatives, your only problem is beingon the side of the killers of Christ. Buck up old man and be responsibile - don't run under the cover of trying to throw it back at us, show me a conservative who can walk on the wate. Its hkuman nature to belong and most of us like to believe our side is right, one thing is for sure you and the Bushies are not. As far as God telling Mosesdon't label him, dokn't you think Label is a 20th century word - it never happened, he said you worship no others in front of me, for gods sake at least tell the truth, I know its inherant for you republicans to lie, but we caught you - this Guy in the White house is a Dummy
Labels is a 20th century word?!?! Can you wear ignorance any more proudly? They spoke Aramaic back in the days of our Lord and Savior and since you and I don't speak that language we use the ancient art of translation. I guess you haven't considered that the Bible has been translated, likely because you and the DemoCat have never read it!!!
To Average Joe:
There you go making ridiculous statements again. I don't claim to have read The Bible cover to cover, but I have 2-3 Bibles in my house and a set of Bible stories I've had for about 35 years.
Granted, I don't go to mass regularly, but I still consider myself a Christian. I believe in the teachings/message of Christ, but I believe other religions have valid messages to offer. I, also, have a copy of Kahil Gibran's "The Prophet" and 2 little statues of Buddah. I believe in reincarnation, too, and there is evidence that the ancient Jews also did. In your estimation, that must mean that I am NOT a Christian. Maybe it means I'm an open minded Christian-did you ever think of that? I believe we are all on a spiritiual journey, the object of which is to love God, be good to others, and to evolve spiritually to "Nirvana" if you want to call it that. We must become one with God/Goddess, (since I don't think God has a gender not being a PHYSICAL being) who is the source of all things.
What you have to understand is that The Bible has been translated into many languages and that words don't always translate exactly which has changed the meaning of the scriptures over the years. Also, The Nicene Council threw out a lot of things they didn't like and I'm sure other things have been omitted over the years. The Church wanted to control the people so they interpreted the Scripture, etc. to that end.
In the end, the only thing that matters is to be a good person. What you call your God or your religion is not important. He/She will look at the life you've lived, and a lot of so called Christians have done evil in the name of Christ. They will have to answer to Him for that someday.
Also, Bewitching Wizard is a good friend of mine, and I can vouch for him being a Christian and having Bibles, etc. He is currently studying the Kabbalah, in fact.
Jesus said to take no thought of tomorrow, what you eat or what you wear. He said to take care of the widows and orphans. He did not condemn any but the self-righteous and hypocrites. The one time he showed real anger was when he drove the money changers out of the temple. He said they had made his father's house a den of thieves.
He said "blessed are the peacemakers, the meek, the poor in spirit." He said sell all you have and give it to the poor. He said it is easier for the camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, but the the greed of members of this administration is astounding. john kerry wanted to equip the troops by making the richest 1% - the percent that includes both him and bush give up their tax cut for a year, but Bush said he would veto that bill, and instead added that cost onto the national debt. every tax bill he and his family have benefitted from. Papa Bush has made up to $10 million dollars in speeches for Rev. Moon. I have links to a couple of articles about that. Moon just bought 12 submarines and gave them to Kim Jung Il of Korea.
A Methodist minister wrote me and said the name for Satan in the Bible is "the deceiver." What better description for this bunch. They deceive about everything. The tax cuts, 9/11, the Iraq War, the environment, the economy, S.S., the estate tax. The "truth is not in them."
Amd if there is one thing that is the marker of this administration, it is greed and also the lust for power. and "coveting" what belongs to others. like the oil God gave to the people of Iraq. And we are out to take what is theirs. We are privatizing the country and selling it off to American bidders.
There is no prniciple this administration will not sell out for money. They outed a Pakistani double agent because they needed something to "distract" the public from the bump Kerry got in the polls after the Democratic convention. Notice there have been virtually no color coded alerts since the election. And Ridge said he did not agree with all the alerts, but he was "overruled."
This administration constantly lies and deceives. A Methodist bishop said their campaign was blasphemous because they claimed only they could protect us from terrorism. That when terrorism has increased many fold since they came into office, and especially since the Iraq War. And, who can honestly believe that if it had been the Clinton Administrtion who had not acted on that Jan. 2001 memo from Clarke to Condi that we "urgently need a principlas level meeting on terrorism, Al Qaeda is not just some little terrorist group," and had further ignored the Aug 6 "Bin Laden determined to strike inside U.S." PDB, Clinton or Gore would have been impeached??
This administration has lied about everything.
Bob Scheiffer, who was a friend of Poppy Bush, has written some interesting editoirlas. One on the astounding fact that when the White House was evacuated, the President was not notified. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/16/opinion/schieffer/main695423.shtmlAND that Bush should have taken care of the Plame problem immediately. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/18/opinion/schieffer/main709807.shtml He said no one would have lied to Johnson for more than a day.
I thought he was a Republican. But then, some Republicans have some sense. For more of his articles, look to the right of the page where it lists columns, and it will say "Schieffer's take." click on that and it will take you to many.
Roger Morris, a Republican who resigened over Nixon's bombing of Cambodia spoke to diplomats, begging them to resign from "the worst administration by far" in the history of the United States. John Eisenhower voted for Kerry, Gen. McPeak did. I dare say General Zinni did. He said if you were the head of the Armed Services, you had to tell the truth because your duty was to the people. He said he would have lasted about 5 minutes in this administration, because they have no interest in the truth or the "best" intelligence. They only want to hear what they want to hear. Even Republican
Chuck Hagel of Nebraska says they live in a fantasy world.
To Average Joe:
I stand corrected. I counted the Bibles in my house last night. I don't have 2-3. I have about 5, plus about 8 books on religion, not including "The Prophet", but including one on the Saints and one with quotations by Mother Teresa. I will look up some quotations to prove my point that Jesus must've been a Liberal by your definition.
Liberals are progressive, conservatives don't like change,
reactionaries want to turn back the clock. If you want to get rid of the safety net for the poor, Social Security, the Civil Rights Act, gay rights, women's rights, children's rights, any kind of protections for the environment and workers, then you are a reactionary ultra-conservative not a traditional conservative. If you are for militant unilateralism and war mongering for profit you are a neo-conservative.
Take your choice. I have so called conservative views, too, as well as liberal ones. My problem with people like you is not that you have your religious views, but that people like you want to shove your views down my throat. Jesus preached in favor of tolorance. Try to emulate Him.
Whoah, whoah, whoah. There are two things I attempt not to challenge, a person's relgious convictions, and the patriotism of an American. I don't care how many bibles you have. What I do care about is your alignment of Jesus with a political party. I won't do it, it doesn't apply, and it isn't appropriate.
to the person who can't even show his/her face...go on my blog, pick out something I present and then back up with facts...and prove it wrong.
I can, and will, consider it all wrong, until you can post actual links, or positive proof of what you say on that dumb thing (blog? I thought it was just a rant).
WHOA
If you are a bible-toter, then you have NO business in politics in any way, shape, or form. It's called the law.
Discussion on that one ended --
So first you compare Jesus and his teachings to Liberalism and now you say a stance on religion means I cannot be involved in politics? Why kind of deranged psychosis are you in? This kind of atheist progressive thinking sounds like liberalism. Wasn't Jesus a religious man? I'll leave that politics and religion debate alone thank you.
Interesting, I knew exactly what you would be whining about now.
I merely noted a similarity is all, and responded to what was a seemingly religious post anyway, and not political. I also posted it last for the night, and not first. Get a grip. Whether Jesus is liberal or not, makes no reference to politics at all (other than religion should be kept OUT of politics). It is merely something to point out, that many seem to find (in that post's reference, which was not political).
My point is that Jesus even said to keep religion out of politics --
And you sit there dumfounded and confused. LOL.
To Average Joe:
I don't think we can leave religion out of politics all together in view of the fact that our values/morals influence our political beliefs. The issue is separation of church and state. As you know, England has a state religion (Church of England is Anglican) and the U.S. doesn't and didn't want to have one. Unlike Iran, a theocracy, we allow freedom of religion and we have a melting pot-mostly Christian, but with people of numerous other faiths. We can not allow one religion or branch of Christianity to supercede all others or to dictate what our laws/political policies will be. It is because The Christian Coalition has become so politically powerful and is supporting their candidates and contributing big bucks to put right wing evangelicals in power at the local, state, and national levels that there is so much concern. I don't want these folks telling me how to live, what books I can read, what art I can look at, what music I can listen to, what movies/tv I can watch, etc. or how to worship God. I also don't want atheists saying that people can't pray in school, at public meetings, ballgames, etc if they want to, and that nativity creches can't be displayed in public places. They are an extreme minority and majority rules-right?
You need to stop type-casting Liberals and realize that we aren't horrible sinners/radicals who want to make the world a den of iniquity and to abolish Christianity. We just want everyone to have the FREEDOM to live and worship as they please as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.---The DemoCat
Also-see my quotes under People of Faith
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