Saturday, June 11, 2005


Please read the most recent coffee table for background on this.
Ron likes the Donkey AND Bob. Wish more people could have tolerance for the uniqueness of each of us. Lets DO get back to the original post. First, fascism IS closer in America than any time in my life. No, it isn't "Hitler". These things are a matter of degree and it is up to us to get suspicious before we DO get to the Hitler stage. Mr Cam is one of the "blinders on" guys who can't see it cuz they aren't coming after him...yet. He says: "When you consider a fascist regime (and let's use Hitler's Germany, since so many on the left love the Bush/Hitler comparisons), you find that while love of country was professed, it was really love of race, and love of culture. Hitler didn't care that German Jews had lived there for centuries' they weren't a part of his plan for Germany. Could you please point out some ethnic group that has been systematically targeted for destruction by our government? No? Hmmm, didn't think so.
YES! I CAN! Liberals. Don't laugh, it's a serious matter. Not an ethnic group but an entire ideology. (for donkey,this is Webster)" ideology-2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture." ..Not any ol group either but one that was instrumental in the actual forming of our Liberal Democracy! A group that has been responsible for the many of the advancements of our country. Don't fool yourself..all this " Hate America first" "Saddam Lover" "Unchristian" et al talk is exactly what is noted by many in this point that Cam can't see without experiencing it for himself. These people in power are not out to debate the opposition. They are out to destroy it and have been for some years now. When the flag or God becomes associated with one particular party and only they can wrap themselves in it it certainly is the root of Cams' description.

2) Disdain for the recognition of human rights. National security trumps individual liberties, and people accept the need to use whatever means necessary to thwart the enemy. Mr Cam says: "What individual liberties are you talking about? The Patriot Act?"
Yep, I am Mr Cam. That is a whole new debate in its self. I would be happy to have it if you like.

3) Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Rallying the people in a patriotic frenzy to defeat or eliminate a perceived common threat or foe. Cam says: Who exactly are you talking about? I ask because this sounds more like the anti-war protesters than anything I've heard from the Bush administration. The Bush administrations' held no rallies. The anti-war crowd most certainly has. Right wing Americans have been their scapegoats, their unifying cause, their common threat and foe. If you're referring to the Rallies for America, then I assume Glenn Beck is the next Hitler?
Actually the Bush administration has rallies all the time. He only allows people that are full supporters of his inside and during the election often required a "loyalty oath" to attend. That is not a common or democratic response from a man that is suppose to represent all the people. If you think the war protesters are anything close to that you are somewhat delusional. By the way, protesters get held in pens called "protest area". Glenn Beck may not be the next hitler but he and Cam seem to think they are a part of the team.

4) Supremacy of the military. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
Ok, we aren't there yet but you must admit we do have widespread domestic problems that do need attention that aren't getting it. We get either military or less than vital issues like "social security" when we have jobs going overseas, fewer good jobs, taxes borne more by work than by wealth, oil and lack of alternative energy, the most expensive healthcare in the world, and worst of all, becoming a "dependent nation".

5) Rampant sexism. The leadership is almost exclusively male-dominated, and gender roles become more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
Here again, men and women always have differences and we will always have some tension there. I think that is a good thing. I personally love women. I am darned happy they are here. I don't think, thanks to the liberals, we have a major problem right now with sexism. Abortion? While I disagree, I certainly can see the point of the anti people. Another topic that is a new thread in its self. As far as homophobia goes Cam says:" Homosexuality is not only more accepted now than at any point in history, it's become a freakin fad! It's cool to be bisexual these days (although Anne Heche might have made it a little less so). If homophobia is on the rise, please point out the time in our nations history when it was more accepted. "
I don't see it as a fad myself. I must have missed the "its cool" thing. I do see people trying to be proud of who they are. I don't like it but don't believe in second class citizens. To say that it is more accepted than any time is like saying after the emancipation that the slaves are treated more like humans than any time in history.

6) Controlled mass media. Either directly by the government, or indirectly by monopolies sympathetic to a certain world-view. Censorship is common. God help us if you can't see this one happening. Cam says:....mass medias ultimate goal isn't to support a government, it's to make a buck. If people really want to listen to liberals whine about how this country is becoming fascist, then that left wing radio network should take off like gangbusters.
Here we come!!! Yes he is right that the buck is the ultimate goal. That's sad cuz when the public likes the lies better than the truth all we get is the lies.

7) Obsession with national security. Fear is used as a motivational tool. Again a part of the patriot act discussion.

8) Religion and government are intertwined. Using the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the governments policies or actions....Cam says: "We've now moved from fascism to a theocracy. If indeed we're using the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion, then wouldn't we also be taking steps to make other religions unacceptable? Talk to a Muslim. Talk to a Jew. Talk to a Sikh. Talk to a Buddhist. Ask them what the Bush administration is doing to strip away their liberties."
Ask anyone who isn't a "fundie" or evangelical it they feel like they are included as proper children of God in our country. This is one of the issues where we aren't there yet but well on our way.

9) Corporate power is protected. The industrial and business aristocracy are often the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
I don't care what Cam says here. This is happening in America in spades. In both parties. Happy to debate it if you wish.

10) Labor power is suppressed. As a threat to the governments power, labor unions are either eliminated completely or severely suppressed.
Labor has no bargaining power today..that would be the people. It's a part of the discussion in the previous post and "power elite".

11) Disdain for intellectuals and the arts and others in higher education and academics. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Funding for the arts is cut, or eliminated. Cam says:
...Hell, I can't make any sense of it. Maybe you can. Oh our damned liberal colleges and professors, Hollywood is evil, and on and on and on.

12) Obsession with crime and punishment. The police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws, and people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. Cam says: I mean, even little old me, a tool of the system, has spoken out against the Patriot Act.
Nuff said, except for, thanks Cam.

13) Rampant cronyism and corruption. Government by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. National resources and even treasures are stolen. Cam says: Sounds like a great description of the Clinton presidency, doesn't it?
Ron says: and the Bush Administration. Like I said both parties now pray to the power elite and not the people. It's just different power ....sometimes. The people of the United States..the many who do the work ,go to war, and buy the goods should be the power elite.

14) Fraudulent elections, either as outright shams, or as manipulated by smear campaigns against opposition candidates. The judiciary is often called upon to manipulate or control elections. Cam blathers nonsense again.

There you go. Let's debate about this instead of about each other.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are the fourteen points a good description of fascism?

Are the seven warning signs accurate?

Can we even agree what fascists are?

The Donkey does not think we can agree on the simplist of things.

6:48 PM, June 12, 2005  
Blogger Dedanna said...

The cat can say that the d.j. is correct.

6:38 PM, June 14, 2005  

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