Disagreements, They're Everywhere!
Marshal has made some interesting comments and I wanted to reply to a few of them. Either side, give us your stuff.
Marshal, we certainly see things in a fundamentally different way. I really do believe though that if we met face to face and discussed we could find enough common ground to be friends.
So now Obama calls himself a Christian. Well. We can look on his stance regarding abortion and homosexual marriage to understand just waht kind of a Christian he is.
Dude!@ Look at those you would call good Christians, like yourself for example and see what they think about war and how far we go before we call it torture. ..Regardless the issues you bring up would make him a crappy Moslem so can we leave that crap behind for good.
First I guess we have a different perspectives on moral imperatives. The things you mention are 2 things I am not a part of. It has done no harm to me or you. It is personal. It effects them and their personal relationship with God. I am more worried about morality that impacts others(yes, abortion impacts the aborted).
And that's the distinction between what he says about the country and what Robertson and Falwell have said about the country. The right wing dudes have spoken about what is wrong without racial overtones.
Maybe, but the fundies also see women in a subservient position and show the same disdain or more for those who are gay or even liberal. It's not in the rhelm of racial but it is in the rhelm of seeing others as threatening instead of brothers in Christ. Why, all the liberals were responsible for 9/11, it was Gods wrath on our country.
I see not much difference in the two sides. I actually relate, through life experience more to Rev. Right(sp) than I do Falwell or Hagge or Parsley.
(re: Smedley Butler)Now you back him up with your exerpt from some joker of 100 years ago. What have his detractors said?
It was not 100 years ago and he was not a joker he was a multi medaled multi starred General in the US Marine Corps. But remember to respect the troops! :-)
I haven't really been able to find detractors beyond people at the time who were implicated in some of it. Like this in a fascist plot to overthrow FDR:
The Congressional committee report confirmed Butler's testimony:
In the last few weeks of the committee's official life it received evidence showing that certain persons had made an attempt to establish a fascist government in this country. No evidence was presented and this committee had none to show a connection between this effort and any fascist activity of any European country. There is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient. This committee received evidence from Maj. Gen Smedley D. Butler (retired), twice decorated by the Congress of the United States. He testified before the committee as to conversations with one Gerald C. MacGuire in which the latter is alleged to have suggested the formation of a fascist army under the leadership of General Butler. MacGuire denied these allegations under oath, but your committee was able to verify all the pertinent statements made by General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization. This, however, was corroborated in the correspondence of MacGuire with his principal, Robert Sterling Clark, of New York City, while MacGuire was abroad studying the various forms of veterans organizations of Fascist character.
Link
Now I don't know to whom it is you refer when you speak of why "they" hate us. If you mean the Muslims you are way off base to think it has anything to do with American foreign policy. They hate us because we do not accept their religion.
By they I would included most of those who feel that way. It is not a religous war but it is interesting that the right thinks it is. This is one place, the one that stuck out to me the most, that we aren't even arguing about the same thing. We need a national conversation on why they hate us. I take my stance on what they are say in foreign press etc. What do you base yours on?
Warrantless wiretapping of foreign jerkwads is essential given the state of technology these days.
I am fine with this if no US citizens are involved within the US. I am betting the vast majority of liberals would agree. That has never been a problem and was legal before Bush was even President. Unfortunately they are not using that metric now. I am for the Constitution, regardless of who is President. No exceptions. I guess that makes me an evil liberal. Either that or you don't have any idea how far this has gone.
Personality politics isn't necessarily a bad thing if the personality in question is a bad choice for office. It is a dodge to bring up personality politics when the personality of the politician is questionable. We need to be sure we aren't electing a jerk, and we need to make sure the jerk the other side is supporting is exposed for the jerk he/she is.
Yes personality is important to our reputation around the world. It is one factor in the campaign. It should not be the entire campaign. Where have you been? We did elect a jerk and the entire world knows it. He has been exposed for the jerk he is. I guess the personality politics doesn't work for avoiding that embarassing circumstance.
Who are these rich guys of whom you speak and how do YOU know they don't deserve what they've gotten? Where do you get off accusing them and calling them thieves? What the rich guy makes has nothing to do with what you make or the people beneath him in whatever company he's with.
I guess the main question here is do you think greed is a bad thing and when does it kick in? People that make 4 or 5 million a year and the company loses money is not worth it. Those below that come to work every day and do it properly should get a larger share of company profits whether the CEO is great or not. You say people should pull their bootstraps and that you want to reward hard work but it is obvious you aren't going to insist on it except for the lucky few. Reward work over wealth and you will have a far more productive society. That's my bet.
posted by Ron at 3:34 PM
5 Comments:
Ron, again it is different concepts of reality and truth. The Prophets and Jesus clearly state what will cause nations to be destroyed and they got the same reception.
BTW, the Roswell Daily Record had a lead Editorial this week (Wednesday ?) calling for the end of U.S. troop involvement in Iraq and opposing the war as being founded and promoted on faulty information. The editorial is on their website in the Editorial section. Will Iraq/Iran be our financial Afghanistan? Even if some of the info on them is true, what can you do when you are eventually broke? Neocons on the one hand and radical Muslims on the other.
Your post is a good supplement to the study on authoritarian personality.
All the Best, and Keep Up the Good Work!
Larry in New Mexico
Ron,
Wow. Long responses back and forth. This is tiring.
To begin, I have no doubt we could toss a few back in perfect harmony.
There is a distinction to be made regarding war. To support a given war is not the same as "being for war". War is abhorent, but unfortunately war is often necessary and has always come before peace. Peace is not possible without the willingness to go to war to get it or to get it back. It's just the way it is. I'm sure Israel would love to lay down their weapons for good. They'd definitely be wiped out if they did, and still peace would not come to the world. So accepting that reality is what a good conservative understands, whether he's Christian or not, and a conservative Christian for sure.
As far as torture, we go farther than dumping water on someone's face before we use that term. Keeping a guy awake? Not torture. Bright lights, low or high room temperatures? Not torture. Making someone uncomfortable? Not torture. Gitmo? Not torture. Poking them with a pillow while they sit in the comfy chair? Not torture.
For info purposes:
Abortion affects everyone. 40+ million people NOT contributing to Social Security. 40+ mil not taking those jobs that Americans supposedly won't do. Travelling carnivals are worried that steps to curtail illegal immigration will deprive them of cheaply paid workers. Among those aborted were high school and college kids looking for summer jobs. That's 40+ million people not adding to our population, not keeping up with the breeding-like-rabbits Muslims. That's 40+ mil that would include inventors and innovators that would enhance our lives. And that's not including all those aborted chemically, which very possibly could be 5 or 10 times that number.
Homosexuality harms the nation in numerous ways, many of which I touched on in three or four posts at my blog, so I won't go into those here. So these two issues, which I assumed is those to which you referred, indeed impacts others in a variety of ways.
Fundies see women as having roles distinct from men. Biblically speaking, they ARE to submit to their husbands (not women to men, per se), but men are to love their wives as Christ loved His church. How much did He love His church? He allowed Himself to be tortured and crucified. They don't show disdain for homosexuals or libs, only for their behavior. Big difference. There's also a major difference between God lifting His protection of our country over the decadence that is so pervasive, and alleged evil by our nation provoking the actions of 19 Saudi a-holes. The not-so-Rev. Wright makes crap up about America and preaches it as truth. Falwell (I don't know the other dudes you mentioned) didn't do that.
I don't care about Butler particularly since his crap is irrelevant to today. It would take too long to research his claims and determine whether he was speaking accurately or with some agenda or whatever. Not willing to put the time in on something concerning that period in history. I will say that I don't see that, should I concede the point, that it in anyway justifies murderous attacks on unsuspecting people by foreign a-holes. To say he worked in the military to protect Wall St is likely a distortion of reality. Doesn't matter how many medals he has if his perception of his duties is so skewed. Another way to say the same thing might be, "we battled to insure that America could do business in foreign lands without risk to their lives." I hope I'm making my point here.
"What do you base yours on?"
Almost 1400 years of the same old thing. Go to my blog and click on "pearls and loadstones" on the list of "Right Ones". There the host is running a video you might want to watch. It's important to remember that the Islamic radicals routinely speak out of both sides of their mouths. It isn't sinful for them to lie to non-believers.
As for others around the world who might hate us, F 'em. I don't worry about what other people say, do you? Aren't you more concerned with doing what you feel is the right thing to do? Should America do any different? I know my initial statement sounds harsh, but to whom do they come running when they want or need something? Barbados?
I'm for the Constitution as well. There has been much debate as to whether or not the prez has exceded his authority under the Constitution, with some saying yes and others saying no. If a foreign jerkwad is communicating with a citizen who is part of a sleeper cell, should the prez hang up because the guy is a citizen when the jerkwad is a known a-hole? Are you willing to risk Roswell on that policy? I don't believe there has been anyone survelied who wasn't worth watching. Feel free to describe how far you think this has gone.
"We did elect a jerk and the entire world knows it. He has been exposed for the jerk he is."
Yeah, but after his term was over, George W. Bush prevented two bigger jerks from winning the White House. Thank God for him.
Of course greed is a bad thing, but you assume it in the corporate world, you don't prove it. Take the oil industry right now. Everyone's up in arms about the "record profits". But there are things forgotten. There is the fact that they don't always make the big dough. There were years where they didn't have great profits, even quite subpar years, and no one got behind them. But now that they have good years, their gouging. How does that work exactly? Congress (mostly the Dems) are trying to eliminate the tax breaks they were given some years ago (which helped them get their profits). This could cost jobs, expansion, it will hurt the stock price, which means your granny's portfolio will lose value, etc. etc. It's not just a matter of someone making big dough, but many others benefitting as well. Yeah, sometimes jobs are cut and some big shot gets a nice bonus. But the cuts benefit the bottom line and all those others tied to it. Those "little guys" who lost out likely never thought to prepare against the possibility. How long can YOU last if you lost your job? Anyone who can't answer that question at all needs to get with it. If you don't have at least six months of expenses available in an emergency fund, get busy. If those execs didn't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, they wouldn't be execs. Those below who come to work every day and do it properly should only get what was agreed to before accepting the job. How dare they expect more than that to which they agreed initially? It is naive to believe that wealth is not the result of hard work done well. It is true more often than wealth gotten by any other means. Reward work over wealth? Wealth is a reward for work. That's not a bet. That's the way it is.
Marshal,I don't drink...anymore. But we could surely find something.
Yes, long discussion are prefered to me over pcd 2 or 3 line snarks of no signifigance. It is a real dialogue and that is what we need in this country.
I understand some of what you are saying but frankly much of it could be reversed and still ring true for many.
More on the way..thanks for the discussion.
marshall art said...
Abortion affects everyone. 40+ million people NOT contributing to Social Security. 40+ mil not taking those jobs that Americans supposedly won't do.
On this, I have to agree. On the rest with either of you, no. There's more to the picture(s) than what you've both said.
I think at one time though, I have spoken up as anti-abortion. I am anti-abortion. It not only robs everyone of what marshall art has said, but it also robs 40 Mil+ parents every year of children, who can't have them. That's 40 Mil+ parents who can't have kids, who want them desperately. To me, this is sheer travesty. To kill, rather than to give.
I'm not anti-abortion for religious reasons, but for pragmatic ones.
How can an embryo not be a life? It exists, it grows, it is matter.
I am pro-choice not pro-abortion. I don't think I have the right to make this decision for another woman, and I certainly couldn't have done it myself-at least not without a lot of guilt. I have 2 friends who have had abortions. One feels tremendous guilt even though she was pressured into doing it by the child's father. One feels no guilt, even now, about aborting her babies because she did not want more children (having abortions instead of being sterilized to prevent more pregnancies is horrible.) I believe life begins at conception. I support better birth control, good sex ed, including abstinence, and promotion of adoption as means of #1 preventing unwanted pregnancy and #2 reducing the number of abortions. Extremists on both ends prevent any real solution to the problem.
And Marshall, you have some serious homophobic issues apparently. No wonder you are a conservative and NOT compassionate. I don't think it is biologically NORMAL to be gay, but it's not my business to worry about what other people do in the privacy of their own homes. Besides, better to be gay and a nice person than to be straight and a rabid homophobic warmongering greedy elitist Cheney/Bush supporter!
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