Monday, October 24, 2005

Coffee Table

You have triumphed at life's game when -- no matter wïn or lose in the eyes of the world -- you can walk away from any demanding moment with a measure of more true self-understanding than you took into it. – Guy Finley, American Spiritual Author and Teacher

35 Comments:

Blogger The Donkey said...

Rest in Peace,Rosa Parks. A sad day for this country.

11:36 PM, October 24, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Republicans were against perjury before they were for it. From 1999:


Sen. Frist: "There is no serious question that perjury and obstruction of justice are high crimes and misdemeanors...Indeed, our own Senate precedent establishes that perjury is a high crime and misdemeanor...The crimes of perjury and obstruction of justice are public crimes threatening the administration of justice." [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Sen. Kyl: "...there can be no doubt that perjurious, false, and misleading statements made under oath in federal court proceedings are indeed impeachable offenses...John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States, said `there is no crime more extensively pernicious to society' than perjury, precisely because it `discolors and poisons the streams of justice.'" [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Sen. DeWine: "Obstruction of justice and perjury strike at the very heart of our system of justice...Perjury is also a very serious crime...The judiciary is designed to be a mechanism for finding the truth-so that justice can be done. Perjury perverts the judiciary, turning it into a mechanism that accepts lies-so that injustice may prevail." [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Sen. Talent: "Nobody else in a position of trust, not a CEO, not a labor union leader, not a principal of a school could do half of what the president has done and stay in office. I mean, who would have said a year ago that a president could perjure himself and obstruct justice and tamper with witnesses... and stay in office." [CNBC, "Hardball," 12/19/98]

Sen. McConnell: "I am completely and utterly perplexed by those who argue that perjury and obstruction of justice are not high crimes and misdemeanors...Perjury and obstruction hammer away at the twin pillars of our legal system: truth and justice." [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Sen. Voinovich: "As constitutional scholar Charles Cooper said, `The crimes of perjury and obstruction of justice, like the crimes of treason and bribery, are quintessentially offenses against our system of government, visiting injury immediately on society itself.'" [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Sen. Hutchison: "The reason that I voted to remove him from office is because I think the overridding issue here is that truth will remain the standard for perjury and obstruction of justice in our criminal justice system and it must not be gray. It must not be muddy." [AP, 2/12/99]

Sen. Craig: "There is no question in my mind that perjury and obstruction of justice are the kind of public crimes that the Founders had in mind, and the House managers have demonstrated these crimes were committed by the president. As for the excuses being desperately sought by some to allow President Clinton to escape accountability, it seems to me that creating such loopholes would require tearing holes in the Constitution-something that cannot be justified to protect this president, or any president." [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Sen. Brownback: "Perjury and obstruction of justice are crimes against the state. Perjury goes directly against the truth-finding function of the judicial branch of government." [Congressional Record, 2/12/99]

Lonna

8:20 AM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I did not credit my previous post of Republicans being against perjury before they were for it. It was from the Daily Kos.

This is Kay Bailey Hutchison on perjury in 1999. I also read another quote by her about perjury, but one is enough.

"The edifice of American jurisprudence rests on the foundation of the due process of law. The mortar in that foundation is the oath. Those who seek to obstruct justice weaken that foundation, and those who violate the oath would tear the whole structure down.

Every day, thousands of citizens in thousands of courtrooms across America are sworn in as jurors, as grand jurors, as witnesses, as defendants. On those oaths rest the due process of law upon which all of our other rights are based.

The oath is how we defend ourselves against those who would subvert our system by breaking our laws. There are Americans in jail today because they violated that oath. Others have prevailed at the bar of justice because of that oath.

What would we be telling Americans--and those worldwide who see in America what they can only hope for in their own countries--if the Senate of the United States were to conclude: The President lied under oath as an element of a scheme to obstruct the due process of law, but we chose to look the other way?

I cannot make that choice. I cannot look away. I vote "Guilty" on Article I, Perjury. I vote "Guilty" on Article II, Obstruction of Justice."

Lonna

8:59 AM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Y'know what's worse, Donkey? The hypocrisy of Bush praising her when the only reason the jerk is in office is that his people were willing to disfranchise thousands, maybe tens of thousands of Black voters in the 2000/2004 elections. Ditto for Condi who went down to Ala. to commemorate the church bombing that killed those four little girls. I called her an "Aunt Tammy" on the show today which probably ticked JD off as he would consider it uncivil and hate talk. Well, how else can you describe the Blacks who support these people who are stripping away the voting rights that Dr. King gave his life to get for them? I'm not saying the majority of the GOP are white supremecists, but the GOP is their Party because they represent SOME of the radical right. I just can't support reactionarianism and hate mongering.

1:47 PM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

OK, here's another debate topic. Celibacy for priests. The RC Bishops have decided to keep this in place despite a shortage of priests. The latter might be alleviated by allowing RC priests to marry if they desire to. I have NO problem with priests marrying and think it might reduce some of the child molesting going on among the priests, as well as increase the number of priests in the Church.
I left the Roman Church and became an Episcopalian which is almost the same thing re: the mass, prayer book, etc. and has the ceremony (incense, candles, etc.) that I like, but allows clergy to marry OR to take a vow of celibacy. (Also allows divorce, remarriage, birth control,etc.) It's pretty good, but there's also a basis for calling us "the frozen chosen". I, basically, think all the mainstream churches need to look at how these wacky fundamentalist churches are attracting their parishioners (lively music helps), esp. the youth. We need to get 'em back and away from the hypocrites and fanatics who think Bush is some kind of saint.
Also, Ron, you said this would be too hard for MEN. Uh, excuse me, nuns have to take a vow of celibacy, too. It's not like women don't have sex drives, also.
Re: abstinance, we talk about it for teens, but a lot of unmarried adults make that choice, too, because of their personal morality, fears of STDs, etc. or because they are not in current relationships and don't want to do the single bar thing. Real life isn't like an episode of
"Friends". It is POSSIBLE to overcome one's biological urges and practice celibacy, but it's not gonna be easy. The worst thing for priests, monks, nuns, and others who do this for spiritual/religious reasons is that it's not just abstinance, it's any kind of sexual outlet at all. Comments?

2:03 PM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Ron, go see the comment I put on "Worst President Ever" on what you could do if you win the lottery. SMILE FACE

2:19 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger The Game said...

millions of billions of blacks were beaten and murdered on their way to the polls in 2004...I know you have your theories....here is some PROOF of Dems actively trying to stop Republicans from voting in 2004...

The 25-year-old son of newly elected congresswoman Gwen Moore was arrested Friday by Milwaukee police and later released in connection with the election day slashing of tires on 20 vans and cars rented by the Republican Party, according to police records.

Sowande Ajumoke Omokunde, also known as Supreme Solar Allah, arrived at the Milwaukee police administration building Friday morning with his attorney, was arrested at 9 a.m. and held in the police holding facility for several hours before being released, according to records.

Omokunde is one of three suspects who had been arrested as of late Friday.

Opel E. Simmons III, 33, a veteran Democratic Party activist from Virginia, was arrested Tuesday and released Thursday without being charged. A 24-year-old man was arrested Friday afternoon in the same case, a police source said.

Investigators want to talk to Michael Pratt, son of former acting Mayor Marvin Pratt, who led Sen. John Kerry's Milwaukee campaign, but have not summoned him yet, police sources said. Michael Pratt could not be reached for comment.

David Feiss, the Milwaukee County assistant district attorney who is handling the case, said he had not received any reports yet and the investigation is continuing.

"There are a number of individuals, local and not local, who we are attempting to contact," Feiss said.

He said several of the suspects have hired attorneys. After talking to suspects, police will release them, he said. If there are charges, Feiss said, their attorneys will be contacted to arrange for them to come to court.

Omokunde, who lives with Moore, a Democrat elected to Congress on Tuesday, was not available for comment, according to a man who answered the phone at Moore's home.

Omokunde's attorney, Robin Shellow, said he was booked by police and released, but declined to comment further.

Shellow said she called police to arrange for Omokunde to come in.

"If the police are looking for one's client, you pick up the phone and say (to police), 'What would you like us to do, and how could we make your job easier?' . . . That's the way responsible families handle it."

On Tuesday morning, 27 tires on 20 cars and vans rented by the Republican Party to carry voters to the polls were slashed. The vehicles were parked in the 7100 block of W. Capitol Drive.

A security guard reported seeing a man running from the scene that morning, police said. Tuesday night, police arrested Simmons, who was in town drumming up support for the Kerry campaign.

I know you will not be able to argue this, or just say made up crap, or insults...that is how I will know I won

4:24 PM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nope, did not read it all, but will not argue with you. This sort of thing goes on on both sides every election. And, it is a shame that it does.
HOWEVER, it is SMALL POTATOES.
Systematically and deliberately making it difficult for tens of thousands of one or more specific groups of citizens (blacks and the poor) from voting is NOT small potatoes. Purging the names of tens of thousands of blacks from the voter rolls PRIOR to an election is NOT small potatoes. Deliberately putting enough voting machines in affluent precincts while the poor stood in line for up to 8 hours to vote because of very few voting machines in their precincts is NOT small potatoes.
THESE ACTS kept hundreds of thousands of people from voting because it was known they would vote Democrat.
More in a separate post.
Lonna

5:12 PM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

P.S.

This top e-mail is from a Republican veteran (Wright Patterson Air Force Base) from Ohio. The bottom one is from another Republican who e-mailed me, Quote:

"Bush was never elected president. Never! I agree with everything that you have on your pickup truck and more. I will do everything in my power to throw these corrupt and immoral characters from power, and I'm eagerly looking forward to the coming week. Hopefully, more people will be able to see just how bad this stuff is. I also blame the media, they are also responsible. I'm curious as to how they'll explain away what the blogs have been reporting all along. I quit voting Republican when Bush ll ran. I voted for his pop the first time around, but that last term I had to vote that liar out. I voted for Gore. I voted for Kerry. I still have a lot of hostility towards Kerry for not following through on making sure every vote was counted. He has lost all of my respect. I have really come to love John Conyers, and wish there were more like him. I don't think I'll ever vote Republican again and I'm still a bit disappointed with what I'm seeing from the Democrats, but if it takes voting out the Republicans in office to impeach Bush I'm doing it. Count on it."

Second Republican to e-mail me:

"I am a retired guy who really worries about our country. I was a conservative for most of my life but have since changed direction.

I really appreciate your thoughts and insights on what is going on in the good old USA. For your info I converted your word file into a PDF file that you can send others who do not have WORD. I will read everything you said and also go to the sites you mentioned.

It amazes me that we think so similar on so many things. Thanks again and you will find the PDF file attached."

Lonna

5:17 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger Ron said...

Republicans were against perjury before they were for it.

This is IT Lonna, you've got it!

LMAO!!!!

5:58 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger Ron said...

Democat, I understand extended celibacy far better than I wished. I tend to see sex as a gift though so I don't know why a spiritually centered person couldn't look on it that way? The reason they were sworn to celebacy is because the families were getting all the churches money. Now it is the little boys families. Whats the diff?
There's certainly no justification for lots of the things that fall in the general area of sex but I have a problem with people that view any kind of sex as some kind of evil. Anybody that wants is welcome to view. It's not where I want to be.
Spirituality is a very important and personal thing in my book. The church concept doesn't really appeal to me. I encourage anyone who feels like it makes them a better person to do it though.

6:18 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger Ron said...

Dude, you've slashed those same 20 tires to death..let them rest for God sake! :-)

6:21 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger Ron said...

By the way,I'm not out to "win". I am out to improve America. Republican Democrat really don't matter squat to me. It's just that I ....especially these days, agree with the Democrats more often.. ..When they actually take the initive to stand up for something.

6:27 PM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wel, Ron, I wish I had said it first, but I didn't. I plagiarized it from, I think, a Buzzflash headline.

Cheney should resign. To add to his woes, General Janis Karpinsky's book will be out shortly, and she believes he was behind the torture at Abu Ghraib.

All this stress cannot be good for someone with his non-functioning heart.

I see the White House is pressuring McCain to exclude the CIA from the prohibition against torture. AND they still say they will veto the bill IF it calls for an investigation into previous torture. Even though even the defense department now says there were 21 homicides included in that torture. It is a good bet there were a lot more than that!! McCain deserves credit for standing for what is right on this one.

Lonna

7:58 PM, October 25, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

P.S. for the Game.

It is a pretty good bet that most of the people who would have ridden to vote in those vehicles whose tires were slashed found another way to get to the voting booth. And while it was a despicable act, I doubt those slashed tires cost 10 votes. However, if your name was removed from the voter rolls, you did not get to vote.

Big difference.

Lonna

8:00 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger Ron said...

Another thing that people tryed to mock us on...Dick Cheney is the President. Betcha he is! :-)

9:17 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger The Donkey said...

Hey Lame game;
You would be out of your depth in a parking lot puddle. If ignorance were a disability, you'd get the full pension. A long period of non-posting would be most welcome on your part. You are the kind of person who, when one first meets you, one doesn't like you. But when one gets to know you better, one hates you. And what meaning do you expect your delusional self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us?

10:05 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger The Donkey said...

The Donkey glimmers with a kind of sunny nobility. The Donkey may what to be called the glimmer Donkey because he is just spreading that sunny nobility all over the place.

11:38 PM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger The Donkey said...

Bush Reinstating Wages for Katrina Work


On Conyers web site:"TELL THE PRESIDENT: NO MORE PARDONS FOR TRAITOR-GATE CRIMINALS
Convicted Previously of National Security Crimes
Elliott Abrahms is Newest Figure in Traitor-gate

Did you know that Elliot Abrahms, pardoned by the first President Bush for the Iran-Contra crimes he committed under the Reagan Administration, now works for the Bush White House? And has been implicated in the leak of Valerie Plame's covert identity? Fitzgerald may well successfully prosecute senior White House officials. Insist that anyone convicted in this case be ineligible for a presidential pardon. Demand that the President not pardon any criminals in his administration who compromise our national security!

Rep. John Conyers: Sign My Letter to Bush Demanding No Pardons for Treasongate

4:14 PM, October 26, 2005  
Blogger Jim said...

Game,

Ohio's secretary of state (Republican and Bush campaign state chairman [conflict of interest?]) was also sued because 21 counties were wrongly informing ex-felons that they had no right to vote. According to Robbins, the secretary of state's office agreed to inform all ex-felons of their voting rights in time for the registration deadline, but then backed out based on a "distorted" interpretation of the law.

I'll try to use this example ONLY ONCE.

9:36 PM, October 26, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now a headline [Buzzflash] about the REALLY important news. Making a religion of distractions like professional sports (in my opinion) is part of the reason Americans are so ignorant.

"Barbara "Let Them Eat Cake" Bush and Geroge H.W. "Iran-Contra Pardon" Bush Eat Your Hearts Out. Your All-White Astros Lost the World Series to the Mutli-Racial Chicago White Sox Coached by a Venezuelan, with an African-American General Manager, and a Jewish Owner. And They Beat Your Butts Off in Your Hometown. And The Sox are All Blue State. Is This an Omen of the End of the Reign of Bushevik Incompetence and Treason?

Lonna

8:18 AM, October 27, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the most recent additions to my truck is this one.

"George Bush and Dick Cheney will fight in Iraq to the last drop of other people's kids' blood."

Lonna

10:51 AM, October 27, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pat Fitzgerald already knew Bush was a liar and hyped the case for war before he started investigating th Plame Leak.

From an article in the Washington Post about the 9/11 commission's findings. This info is buried in it.

The Iraq Connection
Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed

By Walter Pincus and Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 17, 2004; Page A01

"At yesterday's hearing, commissioner Fred F. Fielding questioned the staff's finding of no apparent cooperation between bin Laden and Hussein. He pointed to a sentence in the first sealed indictment in 2001 of the al Qaeda members accused of the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; that sentence said al Qaeda reached an understanding with Iraq that they would not work against each other and would cooperate on acquiring arms.
Patrick J. Fitzgerald, now a U.S. attorney in Illinois, who oversaw the African bombing case, told the commission that reference was dropped in a superceding indictment because investigators could not confirm al Qaeda's relationship with Iraq as they had done with its ties to Iran, Sudan and Hezbollah.

Lonna

11:28 AM, October 27, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Ron,
I knew the reason for the celibacy of priests before. I guess, the same is true of nuns who also have to take a vow of poverty. The RC had all kinds of ways to make money in The Middle Ages (selling indulgences, etc.) not to mention The Crusades and ripping off the Arabs in The Holy Land as well as slaughtering them. Actually, I have read that Hindus and Buddists will choose to be celibate for a time (not for life) as a way of increasing their spirituality (they must become free from earthly desires). I would guess this is a lot harder than just practicing abstinance where at least one has some kind of sexual outlet (Thank goodness!).
What does The Game think of this? If he's unmarried does he practice what he preaches? (Now, now, Donkey, no comments about how he has no choice in the matter-smile)

2:55 PM, October 27, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Y'know Ron, I tend to think that the reason this whole thing about sex being BAD came about because the priests who were determining what their parishioners could and couldn't do were forbidden to have it. (Actually, some of the clergy didn't want anyone to have any fun doing anything.) At any rate, a lot of these Holy rollers are total hypocrites. I used to have a friend who belonged to the Nazarene Church and who said that a lot of these so called devout Christians were having extra-marital affairs. And who can forget Jim Baker and the church secretary? Besides that, if God created it how can it be a BAD thing?
Re: YOU knowing too much about it, Ron, you gotta get off the computer sometimes, y'know!! (SMILE FACE). Seriously, once you're over that situation you told me about, things should improve in that area.

3:18 PM, October 28, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Just for fun, since Halloween is coming up, name your favorite scary movie. (You should do this again on Monday, Ron.)
Mine is "Interview With the Vampire" by my favorite author, Anne Rice and starring my favorite sex symbol, Brad Pitt (sigh!).
Re: your feelings about scary movies and real life being scary enough, Ron, that's why so many people are into the horror genre. It's a much safer way of experiencing fear and anxiety because it's NOT real. ('Course we could just experience DENIAL like the Bushies!) Plus, in most fairy tales and horror novels/stories good always triumphs over evil (the poor miller's son kills the ogre and wins the princess, etc.).
Supernatural monsters like vampires, werewolves, zombies, etc. are more fun to be "scared of" than ones that are real like The Bu$h League, terrorists, etc. which most people feel helpless to fight against, anyway.
Also, Stephen King or someone who wrote an introduction to one of his books said that there is a body upstairs which we are drawn to, but desperately want to avoid looking at. Horror novels, movies, etc. are a distraction to keep us from going up those stairs into that room and peeking under the sheet. We need it, cuz when that happens, what we're gonna see is our own faces.
I love the horror genre, although, I've spent an awful lot of time up in that room since G.W. was "selected" to be "President". I guess, the difference between you and me, Ron, is that you'd rather be up there in the room peeking under the sheet and I'd rather be downstairs reading the latest Anne Rice book. It's a lot more fun.

3:39 PM, October 28, 2005  
Anonymous diane marie said...

Democat: my favorite horror movie is "Dee Snyder's Strangeland"!!! It combines a reality based fear tactic which is totaly ingenious, rent it if you can, hopefully hastings will have it...
the other is "Faces of Death" (1, 2, 3, 4, )---incredible, again totally relaity based and what better form of horror is there these days---oopps---also"Tom Delay's Cavity Search Photo"---says it all huh---talk re reality based horror!!!Happy Hallowenie to all the bloggers out there...

11:20 PM, October 28, 2005  
Blogger The Donkey said...

The original Willy Wonka movie always gave the donkey the creeps. Something about a man surrounding himself with little umpa lumpas, that is just not right.

12:09 AM, October 29, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Donkey,
You should see the new version with Johnny Depp (Gosh, he looks like Michael Jackson in it. Ugh!!!). It´s much darker and truer to the book. Rent it when it comes out on video. This one should win an Oscar for Picture and Actor, but won´t because the stupid Academy will probably wait another 75 years to reward a fantasy film.
I don´t know about getting too reality oriented in my horror films, Diane, although the scariest ones are where it could happen (Hannibal Lector, killer sharks, etc. scientists and business (hypothetically) getting so out of control that T-Rexes and raptors are running amok in island theme parks...)
My favorite horror films are vampire flicks and NOT Bela Lugosi as Dracula, either. (Christopher Lee is my favorite Dracula.) "Interview..." is a beautiful film, scary, dramatic, and funny. It´s got it all and Brad Pitt, too. Tom Cruise, Brad, and Kirstin Dunst deserved Oscar nominations, but, hey, it was a horror movie. :( Women tend to like vampire movies more than men do. They say that it is the sexual aspect of giving into a vampire and that´s why we want our vampires to look like Tom Cruise, Antonio Banderas, Brad Pitt, Christopher Lee,etc. Also, there´s also the psychological/sociological aspect of the beautiful virgin being pursued by the evil vampire which says a lot about our attitudes toward sex, esp. at the time
Bram Stoker wrote "Dracula".
Re: most recent horror movies I wouldn´t watch a slasher movie if I could help it. Hitchcock did it with suspense and a lot better than the Freddy Krueger type that is mostly knives,axes, chainsaws and a whole lot of blood. Still have the virgins, tho, and as we all know the virgins never die-:) To each his or her own.
And re: Ron peeking under the sheet up in that room, well, that is why it is so stupid that it is always the GIRL who tiptoes up the stairs and gets caught by the monster. :)

2:36 PM, October 29, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For me, it would be "the Omen" with Gregory Peck and Lee Remeck. I only thought of it because it is coming on in 5 minutes.
Jaws was a very suspenseful movie. I don't suppose "horror" would be the right term.

Lonna

7:54 PM, October 29, 2005  
Blogger Ron said...

Mine is the Faux News broadcasts.

10:40 PM, October 29, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Which studio makes "Faux News" broadcasts? Is it Independent? (Maybe it's just independent of rational thought) Seriously, Ron, you need to do something besides hang out in that upstairs room unless you think THAT is entertaining. Personally, I don't enjoy being scared by REALITY!!! (FYI-Ron doesn't like horror movies.)
Hope you will play that "Scooter Doo" thing on the show 2moro, Ron, cuz it was funny.

4:04 PM, October 30, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

Ron, am not dissing you here. Just think you spend too much time engrossed in the scary reality mode. All reality and no fantasy must make Ron a very stressed out boy. (Is there a 12 step program for news junkies?) I know it's part of your job, but there are limits. Don't forget to take some downtime to read a book or watch a movie just for fun. :-)
Also, don't let L & B and the Liberal bashing boss get you down. You're really good at what you do and those aren't just "good words" like you say it. We say it because it's the truth.

2:45 PM, October 31, 2005  
Blogger BeWitchingWizard said...

Lets face it folks, where does this Celibacy idea come from, it was the creator - the Light wants to propagate the planet, so I'd say you're all off slightly, Preist, Nuns whoever are not doing the bidding of the creator and its their little joke to tell you they are celibate and then go after the first child they see. No Sex is not outlawed and can be fun - if you can overlook your parents views and find your own 2005. The Maniac

3:26 PM, November 05, 2005  
Anonymous Democat said...

The idea was for priests/nuns not to have families to leave their money to, so it would go to The Church, Wizard, and that's been said here.
Re: birth control. I figure it's because poor people who had lots of kids couldn't afford to have them educated before there was public education. The only way that was going to happen was for their kids to enter the priesthood/convent which frequently happened. Uneducated people were more likely to swallow the dogma of The Church which meant the latter would have power and control over the people which was what it was really all about, not love, spirituality, and forgiveness.

3:53 PM, November 07, 2005  

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